Tulpa.info - metaphysics

feels are very subjective but at least we can explore it by talking

But you're arguing it backwards

if you claim plants can feel, you need to provide the method you use to come to that conclusion

Quite.

thats the thing brain is not the only computing device available to biology , a simple cell can do it toooo

1

until then, it's based on nothing and is just a rhetorical tool

You can maybe strongly show that the electrical impulses result in experienced human feels, but you have no way of knowing that feels can only be produced by electrical impulses in human brains (edited)

immortalbeggar

thats the thing brain is not the only computing device available to biology , a simple cell can do it toooo

two rocks an be a computing device, depending on how you define it

1

5:14 PM

i don't really know what you mean by computing device

Motherfucker who be thumbin' that down.

That's accurate.

Two rocks can maybe be part of a computing device that also involves a human

You people need to learn what computation means. And this be comin' from a computer scientist.

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

i don't really know what you mean by computing device

able to make intelligent choices based on senses

No, a physical computer does not require a human to be classified as a computer.

I think there is often a sort of double standard with feelings. can computers feel? when a neural network does poorly at the task it was made to do, does it feel pain?

Did you know that magic the gathering is strictly speaking, a computer=D

Yes! It's my belief that anything that is actively able to learn has human-equivelent but not-human emotions. (edited)

Zen

No, a physical computer does not require a human to be classified as a computer.

Okay well maybe computer scientists use definitions like that, hence strengthening my case that discussing metaphysics with Zen and an ain't fun!

I forget the exact criteria, but it can be used to make programs n shit.

Unfastened Belts

You can maybe strongly show that the electrical impulses result in experienced human feels, but you have no way of knowing that feels can only be produced by electrical impulses in human brains (edited)

Meanwhile Zen pls reply to this

Unfastened Belts

Okay well maybe computer scientists use definitions like that, hence strengthening my case that discussing metaphysics with Zen and an ain't fun!

That's deadnaming Marissa, shame on you, you should refer to them as Comma.

Omg lol

I say, it does feel, though maybe not pain. the words that we have for emotions are very human centric since most people who speak english are humans, but that doesn't mean that other things don't also have their own emotions

2

most people who speak english are humans

lol nice

well any regular and random pattern can be converted to computing source so magic meh it was bound to happen at some point

I think it's classifiable as pain pretty well - our pain and it's pain serves the same function - to drive us from negative behavior/warn us of danger.

Breloomancer

I say, it does feel, though maybe not pain. the words that we have for emotions are very human centric since most people who speak english are humans, but that doesn't mean that other things don't also have their own emotions

what method did you use to conclude that?

groans

i'm interested

5:18 PM

what's the groan for

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

what method did you use to conclude that?

that is just based on my understanding of the english language. it's a semantic question after all

Unfastened Belts

You can maybe strongly show that the electrical impulses result in experienced human feels, but you have no way of knowing that feels can only be produced by electrical impulses in human brains (edited)

I view this as somewhat backwards. We observe that the brain appears to be where we think. Empirically speaking, yes, you are semi-correct in that we don't know the full extent of brain function. But as far as I am aware we actually do have a broad understanding of brain lobes and partitions and such. It's individual pieces we really don't have understanding of.

5:19 PM

The brain recognizes pain through the central nervous system. Period. Plants have neither of these. We also don't see any parallel system. There is no reason to then presume one.

5:20 PM

A system which takes in input, and then processes an output is different from one which merely directly responds.

does a trap feel, because it reacts to stimuli?

A plant is kind of pre-programmed as well, although there are studies that seem to show that plants have things like memory where a person who tears a plant up can later create a defensive reaction to that person

Zen

I view this as somewhat backwards. We observe that the brain appears to be where we think. Empirically speaking, yes, you are semi-correct in that we don't know the full extent of brain function. But as far as I am aware we actually do have a broad understanding of brain lobes and partitions and such. It's individual pieces we really don't have understanding of.

I think you may have partially misunderstood, I was trying to say, how do you know that only brains are capable of experiencing feels

5:20 PM

And as you said, I agree that you're viewing it backwards ;P

Unfastened Belts

I think you may have partially misunderstood, I was trying to say, how do you know that only brains are capable of experiencing feels

Didn't say they weren't.

You know that you feel, and you can research why you feel. You cannot know whether others feel, and whether feel would always be caused by the same mechanism.

No, but we can peel apart a plant and discern whether they respond to stimulus by complex computation or just direct response.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/does-consciousness-pervade-the-universe/

Fungus definitely are complex.

5:22 PM

Fungus be freaky.

FUNGUS ISN'T A PLURAL

FUNGI

slams fist on desk

fungeese

Fungeroni

imitates a stereotypical r**tarded voice "Fungus; don;t have; emotions"

true story: i didn't name my bonsais or do anything to be attached to them because if i am not careful i will be feeling their feelings and pain if i did bad job of taking care of them and then grief when they die in that case, their pain and feelings would be real - it would be happening in my brain

They don't.

5:23 PM

But they are computing.

the world goes round and round

We know where emotions come from. Dopamine and the like.

5:23 PM

=D

You know where YOUR emotions come from

Okay non-human.

also if you want to see animism in action, watch this and cry not to cry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jU-cori12KU

The Hall of Advertising

IKEA - Lamp (2002, USA)

Whatever you say tulpa demon ghost.

if you can feel bad for a lamp in an ad, of course you will feel emotions and feelings of a plant

5:25 PM

we do this kind of projection all the time - that's how cinema works

5:25 PM

btw at the end of the ad, that's zen, sorry for doxing you

what would all your responces be like if i dare to ask does the universe has intellect and feelings

Accurate. @ the ad. (edited)

Possible, but impossible to know

i might say it has 100 percent cuz i can do those and since i am part of it .....it wins by default too~

5:26 PM

Or, I think it's safe to say the universe does not have an intellect or feelings - but it might have a "what it's like to be a_" in the same way we have a "experience" - if that makes any sense at all. (edited)

immortalbeggar

i might say it has 100 percent cuz i can do those and since i am part of it .....it wins by default too~

all you could say is that parts of the universe under certain circumstances can emerge into intellect and feelings

Intellect and feelings require active thinking ability - to have an experience is up in the air and impossible to observe/prove one way or another beyond the fact that we have one. (edited)

and my second suspision is the whole universe itself is a super duper quantam computer ofc it can ~

what's a computer in that case? (edited)

The universe is literally the opposite of a computer. It's entropic. It's a soft fruit thrown at a wall then exploding violently.

it just uses laws and energy matter field etc to think in , changes in these can represent some form of giant intellect

The resultant mess is a lot but that doesn't mean it's thinking.

immortalbeggar

it just uses laws and energy matter field etc to think in , changes in these can represent some form of giant intellect

no, laws and quantuum fields are tools we use to describe what is happening

5:30 PM

they are very useful tools

Seems that way from where we sit, although it's possible for something to look that way from a teeny tiny scale but if you zoom out we're actually inside some giant brain

So?

5:30 PM

That is true for any number of positions?

Reguile

Seems that way from where we sit, although it's possible for something to look that way from a teeny tiny scale but if you zoom out we're actually inside some giant brain

or in marbles some giant aliens are playing

we are npc ai's

in the unverses sytems

And we are in some other alien's locker for some reason, at the same time (edited)

This is why empiricism requires one core presumption: Reality exists and is sensibly measurable.

5:31 PM

This is definitely a presumption.

5:31 PM

It breaks down entirely if that's the case

5:31 PM

Because we might certainly be alterable.

5:31 PM

By whoever we are the tulpas of.

I don't think anything about the laws of physics, as we understand them, indicates that our universe is self aware or anything like that

could be a bad fan fic of hypersimensional beings

But it is only one presumption, compared to the innumerable presumptions one must make in religion - and also it works a little better pragmatically so far.

Reguile

I don't think anything about the laws of physics, as we understand them, indicates that our universe is self aware or anything like that

we are the part of the universe that's self aware

5:33 PM

or at least a part